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View Full Version : CRT Output Emulation


Fiddlesticks
16th February 2010, 04:24 AM
Output on a CRT TV will look different from how playing on an LCD computer monitor will look. I believe that it is of historical benefit (since CRTs are becoming increasingly rare) to include the option of having the video output mimic what playing on a CRT would look like, a la Stella (an Atari 2600 emulator.
A Professor at GA Tech noticed that Stella fails to accurately emulate the look of a game and asked five of his students to tweak Stella to allow accurate video output as an option. (bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator.shtml)
If it would not be too difficult to implement I think it would be awesome to emulate the unique textures and whatnot because they would allow an emulator user to enjoy an experience as close to the original (i.e. N64 on 1990's TV) as possible.
Thanks guys, keep up the great work!

squall_leonhart
16th February 2010, 05:51 AM
Fuck, no.

You want shit like that, stick to mame. Pj64 is about improving the experience not degrading it.

Fiddlesticks
16th February 2010, 04:08 PM
Ok, first of all arcade systems used a different raster display from what CRT TVs use, second of all it wouldn't degrade the experience since sometimes programmers rely on the specific way CRTs display to implement graphical techniques, and third of all, thank you for your articulate, constructive reply. Rinoa would be proud.

PixelOz
23rd May 2010, 12:22 AM
You have to think that some people can consider that an improvement and not something that degrades the emulator and there are some valid reasons for that but before mentioning that this is something that is optional in other emulators and you can turn it off if you don't want it.

One of the reasons it is done in other emulators is simple, many of those older consoles were designed for tv and the graphics looked fairly good on tv even with the crude resolutions of the older machines because tv scan lines helped to smooth out the graphics a bit but when you look at emulators in modern LCD displays the pixels are so sharp that the low resolution graphics of those older machines becomes very apparent, way too apparent to some people's tastes including mine.

With scan lines and/or other CRT simulations like dot triads the graphics in many instances don't look so rough because things like scan lines (ideally adjustable in percent) sort of became an a crude antialiasing for those graphics. I usually like to switch scan lines on in emulators of older machines cause it makes the graphics look kinda smoother and I prefer them like that instead of the all too apparent jaggies that they have in modern PC screens specially when you enlarge them which aggravates the problem cause it make the jaggies of the pixels look huge.

So you may wonder what place does something like that has in an emulator of a machine like the 64 when it is a 3D machine and when you increase the resolution the graphics of the emulator they just look smoother, so what use does it has in it?

The answer is that because the Nintendo 64 was a very early 3D machine and its power was limited to what was available at the time in many games it had to compromise the 3D a bit in order to provide a better visual experience and a good example of what I'm talking about is the Mario 64 game itself from Nintendo cause you can see that in order for the game to have a more detailed 3D graphics look it actually had to use a lot of 2D tricks to simulate 3D objects and that is very well known and apparent in the trees and in many other objects.

This happened because this machine was sitting right in the middle of the still ongoing transition from 2D graphics toward 3D graphics, it was a transition machine and a 2D - 3D hybrid and proof of that were the many 2D games that were also available for it and the 2D-simulating-3D games that were also available for it.

This trick payed off for Nintendo cause it made the Mario 64 game have a much more detailed appearance that if it was attempted in full 3D cause then it would have cost too much of a performance penalty in the number polygons it would have used to create nice looking objects like that.

So even if in the emulator you can increase the resolution a lot and even give the graphics better antialiasing than what the machine had originally in 3D (I have a pretty high end system and I can do that and it looks very good) the problem is that the 2D parts of the scenes do not benefit one bit from this and when you increase the resolution the 3D graphics improve but the 2D ones just stay the same and they actually look worst because they become much more apparent and that kinda breaks the illusion that they were able to create originally.

It is for this same reason that I don't play the emulator in full screen in my HD monitor and I only use it at a slightly higher resolution than that of TV to prevent the 2D graphics of looking too jagged. What I do is that I give it pretty high antialiasing to make the 3D part of the graphics look better.

A scan line simulation or CRT simulation could help make the 2D graphics look actually better and not just for the 2D-3D hybrid games like Mario 64 but also for the 2D games and some people prefer it that way and it would be very nice if the emulator was capable of providing such a feature for those of us that do prefer it and for those that do not like it they could simply switch it off or never turn it on if the emulator defaults to no CRT simulation mode after install.

RadeonUser
23rd May 2010, 06:24 PM
I don't quite understand.
Is this personal preference or is there an underlying issue with Jabo's Super 2xSai implementation?

squall_leonhart
23rd May 2010, 06:47 PM
A scan line simulation or CRT simulation could help make the 2D graphics look actually better and not just for the 2D-3D hybrid games like Mario 64 but also for the 2D games and some people prefer it that way and it would be very nice if the emulator was capable of providing such a feature for those of us that do prefer it and for those that do not like it they could simply switch it off or never turn it on if the emulator defaults to no CRT simulation mode after install.

Interlacing, not scanlines. get your terminology correct for starters.

squall_leonhart
23rd May 2010, 06:48 PM
I don't quite understand.
Is this personal preference or is there an underlying issue with Jabo's Super 2xSai implementation?

Actually, a new filter has appeared which looks nicely on pseudo 3D and 2D, known as MLAA.

Fiddlesticks
16th July 2010, 03:48 AM
Interlacing, not scanlines. get your terminology correct for starters.

They are called scan lines, you idiot. Look it up. Google, Wikipedia, I don't care where.

"Interlacing" and "progressive scan" refer to the way those scan lines are displayed on the screen. Interlacing means each alternating field is written first, then the other fields are written in to complete the picture. Progressive scan means that each field is drawn sequentially (i.e. 480i is a definition that has 480 scan lines interlaced.)

Don't try to correct me because you clearly have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Next time you want to tell me my terminology is wrong, make sure you have it right. Oh, and GTFO.

Experiment #150
16th July 2010, 11:15 PM
One of the reasons it is done in other emulators is simple, many of those older consoles ...



Woah, was that a comma? :p No offense, my mom is a big grammar person, kinda runs with me.

@ Fiddlesticks: I do believe that you know what you are talking about, but so does Squall, probably more so even. Don't be throwing the "I" bomb around at your seniors. (Not saying that I am one, but Squall sure is.)

From my limited "genius vocab.", I think this is about changing the graphics to the original 64 graphics. I agree with Squall. It would be like watching a T.V. Show that you haven't watched since age five, then watching it again at age fifteen, for nostalgia's sake, only to realize how badly it was made. Good story, but bad quality. Like the original Pokemon series for instance :P. If you get the nostalgia, and the awesome graphics of today, or in this case, a few years ago maybe, then that is all for the better.

squall_leonhart
17th July 2010, 01:35 PM
As Jabo uses D3D8 for his plugins, this feature/function/annoyance is not possible.

Fiddlesticks
14th August 2010, 09:26 PM
As Jabo uses D3D8 for his plugins, this feature/function/annoyance is not possible.

The name of this Forum is "Suggestions," not "Say What's Currently Possible," smart one.

squall_leonhart
14th August 2010, 09:55 PM
Jabo has little to no interest in D3D9

Hence, this will not happen.

make valid suggestions based on the capabilities of the plugin.

Sativa
16th August 2010, 11:57 PM
To the OP:'

i'm playing legend of zelda: majoras mask at the moment on my big ass old TV. pc -> svideo -> scrt -> oldfag TV.

It's just like the old days, ENVY ME :)

Experiment #150
17th August 2010, 12:42 AM
No. Only if it were a portable N64, with a Medium *** new PSP screen. And Transferpak compatible. And white. With an MP3 player computer inside, for an emu. (My MP3 has NES, SNES, GB/GBC/GBA, plus others, so I know it's possible). Then, and only then, or if you had super powers, mainly telepathy, would I envy you.

HatCat
17th August 2010, 07:33 PM
Well we can always use our imaginations and say we do.

Experiment #150
17th August 2010, 07:59 PM
I thought the imaginative mind died out with the entrance of T.V.? :P

HatCat
17th August 2010, 08:08 PM
Then again if it wasn't for the T.V. we wouldn't be acquainted with the mysterious appearances of the more-you-know-rainbow.

Bah I don't watch T.V. anymore I just said that randomly.

Experiment #150
17th August 2010, 08:29 PM
The more-you-know-rainbow?

HatCat
17th August 2010, 11:11 PM
I've only heard rumors, dear friend.

Although I did find this.
http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/pourmecoffee/y0Mtvy595Evs9MXLATZDpNVs9Uv2Rd6uthcGBe19q5IEcao6jK l9ZUFLBYZj/the_more_you_know2.jpg

And this...heh so much for knowledge this round.
http://myspace.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1202740719170.jpg.%5Broflposters.com%5D.myspace.jp g

So yeah, the more you know. :cool:

RadeonUser
18th August 2010, 02:10 AM
I'm starting to feel the need for an epic cleansing on all theses posts :\

dsx_
18th August 2010, 08:09 AM
its just a bit of fun :P

Experiment #150
18th August 2010, 01:58 PM
Better watch out rswedlow, RadeonUser has a giant vacuum sweeper!!! :P

But in return to that awesomewickedsweet Panda,
http://media.photobucket.com/image/picture%20is%20unrelated/SOB_Brasky/Picture_unrelated_zebracock_grilled.jpg

HatCat
18th August 2010, 03:34 PM
http://media.photobucket.com/image/picture%20is%20unrelated/SOB_Brasky/Picture_unrelated_zebracock_grilled.jpg

man that nasty


lol sorry about all the rainbows in this thread, indeed an epic cleaning is in order.
Too bad vacuum sweepers have no effect on the electromagnetic spectrum.*

*eh intuitively I'm sensing the existence of ideas but, I mean, with rainbows under the visible light spectrum

Fiddlesticks
22nd October 2010, 09:59 PM
As Jabo uses D3D8 for his plugins, this feature/function/annoyance is not possible.

Your ability to read Jabo's mind is impressive, but I really would like to hear from one of the developers that this will or will not happen, not from another user.

As for your opinion that accurate emulation is an annoyance, let me explain the concept to you with analogy: Sharpies look good to write with. They're crisp, clean, and leave a good amount of ink on the page. Now imagine the Mona Lisa being redrawn with Sharpie. Wouldn't look good, right? That's because certain types of coloring are only good for certain types of things. LCD monitors look good like Sharpies, but displaying a N64 game with one would look like a Sharpie Mona Lisa. If that's what you want, fine, but I'm saying that the purpose of an emulator is to emulate- meaning to accurately represent a game's true appearance and performance. I'm not saying the TV effect should be mandatory for the player, just that it should be an available setting so that I can experience Miyamoto's work as he intended long after CRT TVs break down.

dsx_
22nd October 2010, 10:46 PM
zsnes uses directx 8.1 and has the scanline/interlace feature

ihearpixels
23rd October 2010, 01:49 AM
ZSNES uses software rendering.
It does not use Direct3D, but DirectDraw.

ZSNES renders to a buffer, Jabo renders to textures. I'm sure you see then why its impossible at this stage to support CRT emulation when there is no way to post process the screen using his current method.

dsx_
23rd October 2010, 07:10 AM
zsnes uses software rendering? wow. must be written insanely well to have such low system requirements.

squall_leonhart
23rd October 2010, 07:52 AM
it doesn't have low requirements.... hasn't for a long time.

dsx_
23rd October 2010, 08:17 AM
explain why it runs on a pentium 2 lol

alysher
23rd October 2010, 07:32 PM
explain why it runs on a pentium 2 lol

i think you forgot that the SNES runs a 3.5Mhz 16bit processor....(yes i wikipedia-ed it, and was suprised it was that low as well) so a jump from 3.5mhz to a 266mhz(500Mhz recomended) is a HUGE jump. and there is no ram requirement for the video card.

dsx_
24th October 2010, 12:20 AM
yeah i knew it was 3.5MHz...guess I didn't think of it that way :P

alysher
24th October 2010, 01:34 AM
seriously tho....i have an old win9x box that has a p2 350 in it, and even playing zsnes on it isnt easy, the low fps i get doesnt make for a great experence. i grant that it will run on a p2 266, but if you really want to play games with it the 500 recommended is actually a necessity. and unless its a p3 or better your actually screwed.

dsx_
24th October 2010, 02:39 AM
Yeah i was bored recently and decided to put Windows XP on a P2 233MHz, and believe it or not, CPU intensive applications such as ZSNES actually worked faster than in Win98. Even got Project64 running at 33% speed! lol