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legend
3rd December 2008, 07:32 AM
Wow, the UI for changing/viewing setting is sooooo different. I like. But I strongly feel that "Plugins" should be at the top and 1st displayed when you enter "Settings". Plugins are what are going to be changed ALL the time, not anything on the page now that's initially displayed.

zilmar
3rd December 2008, 07:54 AM
Wow, the UI for changing/viewing setting is sooooo different. I like. But I strongly feel that "Plugins" should be at the top and 1st displayed when you enter "Settings". Plugins are what are going to be changed ALL the time, not anything on the page now that's initially displayed.

Are you talking about the changes in the .exe or the gfx plugin ?


if you add "Plugin Page First=1" under "[default]" in the project64.cfg file then the plugins page will be at the top of the list.

legend
3rd December 2008, 08:37 PM
Are you talking about the changes in the .exe or the gfx plugin ?


if you add "Plugin Page First=1" under "[default]" in the project64.cfg file then the plugins page will be at the top of the list.

Yeah, sorry, clicked on the wrong thread I guess, this was meant for the exe thread.

Thanks for the tip! I think it would be nice though if this was default. It makes more sense, its always been like this before (in every emu) and I'm sure all users would prefer this.

Smiff_
3rd December 2008, 08:51 PM
I think it would be nice though if this was default. It makes more sense, its always been like this before (in every emu) and I'm sure all users would prefer this.

this was my reaction aswell, definately, but after discussing with zilmar i've changed my mind.. most users of pj64 do not change plugins, they barely know what a plugin is - they just use it. in fact, I would say we want to slightly discourage messing with plugins because it causes a lot of problems with inexperienced users. all things considered, i think zilmar is right to have done it the way it is now. even if its slightly less convenient for most of us!

edit: i will document a list of tweaks for experienced users, when we have enough of them :)

legend
3rd December 2008, 11:29 PM
this was my reaction aswell, definately, but after discussing with zilmar i've changed my mind.. most users of pj64 do not change plugins, they barely know what a plugin is - they just use it. in fact, I would say we want to slightly discourage messing with plugins because it causes a lot of problems with inexperienced users. all things considered, i think zilmar is right to have done it the way it is now. even if its slightly less convenient for most of us!

edit: i will document a list of tweaks for experienced users, when we have enough of them :)

Fair enough, fair enough. :)

Smiff_
3rd December 2008, 11:42 PM
Fair enough, fair enough. :)

we could both be wrong though!
i was thinking maybe these advanced options should use the advanced (hidden/unhidden) options system we already have.. not sure why they have to be activated by editing the config file..

HatCat
3rd December 2008, 11:51 PM
No one changes plug-ins only to be adventurous.

Smiff_
3rd December 2008, 11:54 PM
No one changes plug-ins only to be adventurous.

not sure what you're saying, but if they're changing plugins because a particular game doesn't work on default plugins (which i think is the most likely reason?), they should be changing the plugin only for that game. either by right clicking the game or going into settings. so we probably do want to make the per-rom plugin selection easier to find than the global one..
changing default plugins is a major change to the emulator.. essentially all bets are off as to what happens next.

which reminds me.. whatever happened to that per-plugin compat feedback system i designed 5 years ago?!
the idea was a fairly simple system based around lowest-compatibilty-wins plus an info file for each plugin, to dynamically create a compatibility status for each game depending on the plugins selected (not to actually select the plugins for the user - that'd be another major step!). we should probably do this some time (the compat. feedback part i mean, the second bit i just made up is way ambitious). 'twould rock.

HatCat
4th December 2008, 12:06 AM
That doesn't automatically mean they'll blame any new introduced problems on Project64. They either know when to change it back or don't know how plug-ins work.

Therefore there is nothing to hide about plug-ins.

zilmar
4th December 2008, 01:17 AM
That doesn't automatically mean they'll blame any new introduced problems on Project64. They either know when to change it back or don't know how plug-ins work.

Therefore there is nothing to hide about plug-ins.

I wish this was true .. things like people add plugins then blame pj64 for being slow for show a settings window. Or the close the emu and restart it and get an error for not being able to open an eeprom because there was a zombie created by a different gfx plugin.

People do not always know when it is a plugin in related or not.

HatCat
4th December 2008, 02:00 AM
In any case the alternatives are a symbol of teamwork outside of Project64 and fix many problems than create them. Of all the threads I have read so far I have known users to prefer other plug-ins for certain games but remember no issue report that was because they changed a plug-in.

They may not always know a problem source given situations, but they could remember changing processors and change them back. They also might not do that yet actually have figured out (in rare cases read) themselves how to change them, but nothing is invincible.

legend
4th December 2008, 06:54 AM
In any case the alternatives are a symbol of teamwork outside of Project64 and fix many problems than create them. Of all the threads I have read so far I have known users to prefer other plug-ins for certain games but remember no issue report that was because they changed a plug-in.

They may not always know a problem source given situations, but they could remember changing processors and change them back. They also might not do that yet actually have figured out (in rare cases read) themselves how to change them, but nothing is invincible.

I totally agree with Icono. If they smart enough to find another 3rd party plugin, download it, put it in the right directory, launch PJ and then go to settings and change that plugin, then they're no way they won't remember they did that and know to go back if there's a problem. I have never seen a problem solved on the forums by telling someone "go back to the default [Jabo] plugin" and then they're like "Oh, forgot about that, that was the problem".

I know there's a custom way to get it fine for me, but don't think its the best idea to cater too much to those who are going to have a billion problems getting the emu to even work, and not because the 1st page displayed in settings is the plugins screen, no, because they're bloody morons and they can't read instructions if they're life depending on it and they just fuck up everything they touch.

People are idiots, but I don't think this is going to help much. I do just hate when the majority are inconvienced because of those really idiotic noobs out there! Argh!

Anyway, my 3 cents.

zilmar
4th December 2008, 08:03 AM
I do just hate when the majority are inconvienced because of those really idiotic noobs out there! Argh!


The people on the forum are the minority. We can get up to 4,000 downloads a day. These people expect it just to work. Giving plugins as the first page suggests the best thing for these people to do is find another plugin. I have also had people who said " that uses plugins, that is to complicated for me"

zilmar
4th December 2008, 08:07 AM
I totally agree with Icono. If they smart enough to find another 3rd party plugin, download it, put it in the right directory, launch PJ and then go to settings and change that plugin, then they're no way they won't remember they did that and know to go back if there's a problem. I have never seen a problem solved on the forums by telling someone "go back to the default [Jabo] plugin" and then they're like "Oh, forgot about that, that was the problem".

The majority probaly never try to install a plugin and if they screw it up they more likely just uninstall and re-install.

I know there's a custom way to get it fine for me, but don't think its the best idea to cater too much to those who are going to have a billion problems getting the emu to even work, and not because the 1st page displayed in settings is the plugins screen, no, because they're bloody morons and they can't read instructions if they're life depending on it and they just fuck up everything they touch.


Which is why plugins are still there .. but I just do not think there should be so much focus on them. Even get away from the word configure plugin.. just go to controller settings instead of configure controller plugin.

There is plenty of times we get questions like "what keys are used"

HatCat
4th December 2008, 11:50 PM
That would be because the majority don't know how to install one.

The people on the forum are the minority. We can get up to 4,000 downloads a day. These people expect it just to work. Giving plugins as the first page suggests the best thing for these people to do is find another plugin. I have also had people who said " that uses plugins, that is to complicated for me"
Do all 4,000 of them private message you every day? As for me whatever 'page' happens to be discussed I understand that to achieve quality output it is necessary to go through advanced settings, so I'm not concerned about order. Me and legend are of those who do want to see quality instead of simply working emulation (quite a goal for your design given you don't necessarily serve happiness as much as a correct product), but there is also a reasonable amount of people who need to redownload on occassion or want to learn about alternatives like plug-ins and be encouraged to become an advanced user by interface. If you don't do that you do serve happiness rather than for a professional product, and generally the people who are near helpless enough pirate the game images anyway. I'm not for this idea of bringing attention to plug-ins over beyond the present, but I can't help but sense some form of contradiction.