#11  
Old 21st September 2016, 04:50 PM
millansoft millansoft is offline
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Hello,

My 7z files hasn't any kind of password and I have a lot of emulators/roms that are already compressed (7z most, working fine) and you won't notice any speed change because the decompression of a rom file it's very fast on a modern computer and you save a lot of disk space, but it's valid point of view yours, of course.

Thanks anyway for clarify it, now I know that it wasn't just me about the 7z files, maybe you should remove the extension from the Open Rom file to avoid confusions, or fully implement it (better that way I guess)
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  #12  
Old 21st September 2016, 04:56 PM
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Frank74 Frank74 is offline
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It's a bug that needs to be fixed. There's no reason why 7z shouldn't work. As the compression used in Project64 is 7zip.
7z files work from the ROM browser, if copied to your ROM folder.

Though compressed files use less disk space, they use more memory (RAM). Double the memory is used.

Last edited by Frank74; 21st September 2016 at 05:00 PM.
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  #13  
Old 21st September 2016, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millansoft View Post
and I have a lot of emulators/roms that are already compressed
Which is another significant disadvantage to compressing ROMs.

To keep your ROMs compressed you would have to zip each one individually. This makes it tedious to unzip every single one of them unless you are good with the UNIX command tools or have a programmed solution. Conversely, if they are ALL already uncompressed, and you decide you want to save disk space, you can just zip all the ROMs up into one single, well-compressed (and much more optimized, due to the similar ROM file bytes) archive, except the ones you are going to load in Project64 or play frequently.

Keeping all your ROMs compressed within their own individual 7z files is highly unoptimized compared to keeping all the ROMs in one collective compression archive (and zipping zip's inside zips or 7-zipping 7z's inside 7zs only adds to the file size, not subtracts from).

The long and short of it is that keeping all the ROMs uncompressed to begin with makes maintenance life easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by millansoft View Post
and you won't notice any speed change because the decompression of a rom file it's very fast on a modern computer and you save a lot of disk space
Try a 64-MiB ROM, like Resident Evil 2. Not only is loading 512 "megabits" even slower, but so is decompressing it all, regardless of how fast the computer is the difference still exists, whether you notice it or not. It's an unnecessary addition when you could just keep it uncompressed, instead of compressed--visible difference or no.

If I really wanted to save disk space, I would maximize compression--which is going to be even slower for Project64 to decompress.

Decompression of a ROM file may be very much faster on a modern computer--the insignificance of a few gigabytes being saved in a small collection of ROMs being even more so, as disk space is quite plentiful (on said modern computer) and can easily be managed, unlike performance costs.

If one torrented an entire ROM set or something then that's a separate problem entirely; you'd save more hard disk space not torrenting entire sets of ROMs to begin with, than you would by keeping a bunch of (compressed/uncompressed) ROM set files you never look at, let alone run in Project64, on-disk in the first place. Compression doesn't beat removal of unneeded files or ROMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank74 View Post
Though compressed files use less disk space, they use more memory (RAM). Double the memory is used.
I think that sounds like a bug in Project64. After un-zipping the ROM, the zipped ROM file stream should be closed and the memory de-allocated, with only the uncompressed ROM buffer remaining allocated.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:35 PM
millansoft millansoft is offline
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Hello,

I understand what you mean, but maybe in a F1 Race the milliseconds matter, but in a open rom exercise you are not going to notice the speed difference.
I have all my roms 7zipped, each file separately and with a simple batch script I can compress all the files in a folder using the lastest 7zip version and it has really a size difference comparing the same file using the zip format.

So, in my case in practical effects I prefer the 7zip format over the zip one.

But it's just my opinion, anyway thanks for your explanation, I always like to learn more.
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  #15  
Old 22nd September 2016, 02:14 PM
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I wasn't debating zip vs. 7-zip.

There are different compression formats. The problem either way is that you lose disk space by compressing each ROM individually; you would save much space by just storing all uncompressed ROMs in one single compression archive (especially with 7-zip).

And while you could still do this even if they're already compressed (storing a bunch of already-compressed ROMs into one single 7z, instead of storing uncompressed ROMs into a single 7z), it's extra junk because the archive bloat is cumulative when putting zips inside zips or 7z files inside a 7z file.

So really the best way to save disk space is to have them all uncompressed, then put them all in one consolidated compression archive to extract frequently played ROMs on an as-needed basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by millansoft
I understand what you mean, but maybe in a F1 Race the milliseconds matter, but in a open rom exercise you are not going to notice the speed difference.
This goes back to the original point about what is or is not noticeable, or is or is not a "modern computer".

You say the difference in speed between Project64 loading zipped and unzipped ROMs is inconspicuous and negligible. I say that the freeing of a few megabytes or gigabytes of disk space on equally as modern a computer is even more impossible for me to notice, because I don't care about disk space unless there's a reason to.

And it still depends on what can be considered "modern". I always ran the Windows port of Project64 on a 1.90 GHz CPU; I'm pretty sure I remember noticing a difference with and without compression but am not going to swear to that since I rarely saw any occasion to want to compress any ROMs.
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  #16  
Old 22nd September 2016, 02:29 PM
millansoft millansoft is offline
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Hello,

Your opinion is valid, I think that mine is too we just have different point of views and that is fine, anyway I guess that this was useful to report a bug

Thanks
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Old 22nd September 2016, 04:25 PM
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You're not pointing out opinions, and I'm not pointing out opinions.

We're establishing facts here, not opinions. The insignificance of keeping your ROMs uncompressed if you feel no difference in speed with loading times is fact, not opinion. The insignificance of saved disk space on a modern computer with plenty of free disk space (to the point where saved bytes aren't noticeable either) is a fact as well.

The only opinion I can see in this thread is the order of precedence we take on some facts over others. A priority which I see little room for imagination in, but that is one opinion that everyone is entitled to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by millansoft
I guess that this was useful to report a bug
As for the bug in Project64, it's probably been like 8 years since I've tried to open a 7z in it. I had no idea it was ever even implemented to begin with, so this thread itself was surprising to me.

A good amount of disk space from better compression would be saved if Project64 implemented ROM browsers within ROM browsers (i.e., a ROM selector menu for multi-ROM 7z archives, themselves opened from the main ROM browser menu) so that you could just save more disk space by consolidating similar ROM files in one single 7z, not many ROMs each inside their own 7z files separately.

Still, this begs the question of how much saving disk space really matters. Most people probably run out of disk space because of porn or something; I've never had a problem with disk space and have never had a hard drive >= 300 GiB of space.

I also doubt it would be worth complicating Project64 with the extra code and dependencies. It's supposed to emulate the N64 hardware but I think the N64 system only supports ROMs, not zip archives, not 7z files inside 7z files, not ROM browsers inside ROM browsers, not brute-force password-cracking of protected files within archives and not anything else that's going to cause the forums to be swamped with new issues and complaints revolving around people using wrong formats for their ROMs, or compression.
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  #18  
Old 22nd September 2016, 04:47 PM
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Besides which, ROMs being zipped almost certifies it was downloaded illegally from a web server, to be in that format in the first place, rather than using a backup device or otherwise getting the ROM legally and taking the time to 7-zip it with maximum compression before just playing the darn thing in Project64 already.

So that just adds to the irony of caring about ROM download talk or illegal emulation while insisting on supporting inaccurate formats (e.g. compressed ROMs) anyway.

However this post I will say is where I get to opinions, not facts. (Obviously I'm not being factual this time.) I'm being academic, not stubborn.
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  #19  
Old 22nd September 2016, 06:31 PM
zilmar zilmar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millansoft View Post
I understand what you mean, but maybe in a F1 Race the milliseconds matter.
Extracting one whole file sure not much difference.

Adding them to the rom list, a zip file I can read just the header, 7 zip I have to extract the whole file.

so it is like 4 ms vs 1000 ms with adding to the rom browser, I do cache the information it is that bad, so it is a lot better the second time.

7zip compressing benefit is when you have multiple files there, so zip useally has one, vs multiple in 7z.

but yes you should be able to open a 7z with file open, I would have to extract all the files in it to try and work out which file to run and prompt the user.

Last edited by zilmar; 22nd September 2016 at 06:33 PM.
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  #20  
Old 23rd September 2016, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zilmar View Post
7zip compressing benefit is when you have multiple files there, so zip useally has one, vs multiple in 7z.
Especially when the bytes are similar (almost the same exact ROM).

So a well-optimized 7-zip compression archive would have similar files, such as:
Code:
Super Mario 64 (J) [!].z64
Super Mario 64 (USA translation).z64
Super Mario 64 (PAL translation).z64
Super Mario 64 (U) [f1] [broken loooool].z64
Super Mario 64 (King James) [!].z64
[...]
All versions that people ordered the cartridges for internationally and decided to dump from their carts legally instead of downloading all from some ROM site when it's a million times easier because Project64 implemented this format.

Anyway I don't think putting some zip file onto a ROM chip would run on a n64 regardless.

Last edited by HatCat; 23rd September 2016 at 04:21 PM.
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