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  #81  
Old 4th May 2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by p_025 View Post
How about this: Make it accurate enough, where it'll run just about any commercial title. Apply optimizations. Boom, accuracy and speed. It's not as fast as Hacky Solution 1 over here, but it works better. Overall, the lack of bugs and increased stability may very well lead to less time wasted fucking around with settings and more progress made in a game.
Pretty sure some N64 emulators fit that description already . Sure, some obscure titles don't work, but most do work. I think a problem is, people are unaware of what N64 emulation is capable of. When I browse other sites, I see people saying they wish Rogue Squadron was emulated... Like cmon, that's been emulated for years already! It's not easy to make a fast AND accurate emulator. Like I said above, combining work isn't so easy.
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I guess the main disagreement is on how accurate it needs to be. I get that. Fine, go ahead and make your cycle-accurate emulators, or your single-game-playing hackfest. I'm more concerned with what's going to be most useful. If others don't agree, that's certainly their right.
Everyone has their own goals. I personally love 1964 and even that emulator works for many games that I play. I still hope to one day fix it up and improve accuracy .
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If there's a bug, it gets tracked down and fixed.
This is more likely to happen in a diverse environment where there are multiple projects for the same type of work.
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You end up with poor Gonetz releasing his plugin to the public four months late only to have it suffer from many of the same issues of his previous attempts with worse performance.
That's because it's not always easy to balance performance and accuracy. There are far too many limitations and end users don't seem to understand this.
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The problem is finding the piece of code in the working plugin that makes it work. Assuming, of course, the plugin is open source, and the dev cares and has a goal of making his/her plugin better. Otherwise the point is moot. It doesn't help debugging when it turns out nobody gives a fuck.
Plugins are very useful for debugging. If I see a graphical glitch, I can try a combination of different plugins and emulators to track down the problem. To me, that's very important.
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Whoops! I meant PJ64K. *edits post to fix

PJ64 in itself is great, been really good since 1.6 and getting better from what I've seen.
Wow, 1 letter makes a huge difference . Yes Pj64k is terrible.
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  #82  
Old 4th May 2015, 08:34 PM
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And you can code "Hello world" to make it run as ridiculously fast as you want, it's not a GameCube emulator at that point.
No no, now you're changing the point in question.

Whether it's GameCube-related or emulation-related changes none of this. It doesn't even reinforce anything negative against my point if it's a basic "Hello world" application.

There IS an inverse relationship between maximal portability with how code is written, against how fast it can possibly be written to perform. And that goes the same, for the type of accuracy its approach is--whether emulation accuracy, "Hello world" accuracy, doesn't matter.

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What's the ideal amount of accuracy? Cycle accuracy? It's certainly accurate, even moreso than an interpreter, but not really good for use beyond an academic sense.
Interpreters versus re-compilers is on a totally separate scale to cycle-accuracy vs. op-code-accuracy. You're attempting a comparison on things between two different scales.

In fact, MarathonMan even tried to do a cycle-accurate re-compiler branch where CEN64 would be a fast-as-possible re-compiler that was still cycle-accurate. How timing emulation is maintained on what degree of literal approach at emulating it, is not the same as whether there is an interpreter, a compiler, or even HLE. That, however, is why I strongly advocate interpreters--they're standard solutions neutral to whichever approach and can be tackled alongside either cycle- or non-cycle-accuracy easily.

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How about this very speedy but inaccurate implementation over here? It won't do a lot, but the things it does, it'll do very fast! At that point you're hardly even emulating the system.

How about this: Make it accurate enough, where it'll run just about any commercial title. Apply optimizations. Boom, accuracy and speed. It's not as fast as Hacky Solution 1 over here, but it works better. Overall, the lack of bugs and increased stability may very well lead to less time wasted fucking around with settings and more progress made in a game.

I guess the main disagreement is on how accurate it needs to be. I get that. Fine, go ahead and make your cycle-accurate emulators, or your single-game-playing hackfest. I'm more concerned with what's going to be most useful. If others don't agree, that's certainly their right.
Indeed, then you realize that you can't make everyone agree with you on the level of accuracy the proper mondo or one-size-fits-all emulator should have. For that same reason, there's no sense in expecting different developers to all form a team. That's where Dolphin comes in--it works for them because of their own social little thing and their own group agreements on what an emulator could be. Doesn't mean you suddenly know enough about emulation to know that everybody agreeing on the same thing consolidates into better emulation progress.

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I'll disregard the fagwreck comment for now, mostly because it's just very odd.
It certainly is. But the truth hurts, so, that's why as I said I'm not going to delve into that separate issue.

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The fact is, if someone else wants to produce a competing GameCube emulator, they're more than welcome to. Nobody bothered to, back in the day. Sure, there were whisperings of Dolwin and WhineCube and some others, but none really received any attention. Until something finally exploded. At that point, why bother maintaining a plugin API which nobody was using anyway?
Which returns to my original point as you may have read: To them, it only looked worse to keep the appearance of having a plugin system when there was no competition, no other maintenance of plugins, no other adverse approaches. Seemed misleading for them to do it if anything. That doesn't mean that the best decision was that they HAD to get rid of plugins--but getting rid of plugins by choice? Fine. Nothing wrong in their condition from doing that. But you are under some huge stereotypes if you think that compares to any other environment that's not their own.

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And really, how accurate does it need to be? It already has a compatibility record to make any N64 emu dev green in the face. Except perhaps CEN64 once it matures, and that'll have its own issues.
Your compatibility information about N64 emulation is outdated. I somehow suspect that CEN64 will never obtain any more N64 gaming compatibility than what Dolphin has for GameCube, but far be it from the point of CEN64's introduction that basically every game is working now without bugs, either pixel-accuracy or otherwise (though generally with the former).

Of course, there is the fact that extra peripherals and RCP deviations make much of N64 hardware, more complex than GCN hardware, so there will be plenty of stuff like Neon64 which many 64 emulators today still wouldn't run.

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I'm not implying it, I'm practically shouting it form the rooftops.


If there's a bug, it gets tracked down and fixed. If something is inherently buggy or broken, it gets blam'd and/or overhauled.
Yes, which is equally true with a plugin system involved. Any bug that the team or individual working on that plugin doesn't know how to fix--would not become any less chaotic with a giant team of developers who can't agree on the same approach.

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It's still better than having this thing where something breaks a particular plugin or emu, and you get this attitude that's like "big deal, go play it with <insert other emulator or plugin here>".
Which is equally applicable without plugins. "Big deal, use CEN64 or something else without plugins to fix the issue."

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I don't see the benefit in stretching devs thin, to the point where one person does an entire component. You end up with poor Gonetz releasing his plugin to the public four months late only to have it suffer from many of the same issues of his previous attempts with worse performance.
That was his choice to make. The existence of plugins didn't stretch Gonetz thin--his choice to tackle what he did and involve practical issues like money funds, backer support, time and pressure--those were decisions that allowed him to be in the situation where things ended up, as well as everyone's choice to fund it. But that cannot be blamed simply on the existence of A specifications--they exist to be used as intended.

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Or Zilmar, who I've already talked about. Don't get me wrong, I admire the guys and wish I could do what they do. Which brings me back to the point of this thread, they are very much underappreciated.
If you think that now really, then you should have seen Project64 1.4. Back then, the emulator truly was free. Free in more than one sense, like short-sighted decisions of practical convenience. Why, it was even maintained in C.

You easily could justifiably make many comments on where PJ64 has gone downhill rather than uphill, yet you don't seem to be doing that. You easily could make comments about where emulation improvement in PJ64 or other emulators has gone in some places uphill rather than downhill, yet you don't seem to be exemplifying any of that either. The long and short of it is, you seem to just not know. But that's never anything to be faulted for--Dolphin is after all just a reflection of these stereotypes.

Raw appreciation is not what matters here. I'm unable to say how much zilmar relies on positive feedback, but it's not what's important.

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Originally Posted by p_025 View Post
The problem is finding the piece of code in the working plugin that makes it work. Assuming, of course, the plugin is open source, and the dev cares and has a goal of making his/her plugin better. Otherwise the point is moot. It doesn't help debugging when it turns out nobody gives a fuck.
Another separate issue from plugins vs. no plugins. And "finding the piece of code" is something relevant/necessary on the level of copy-pasta when you have no hardware knowledge--level and type of skill with the preferred field plus whether most focus in the target is on HLE or otherwise is relevant to whether the bug is found, not how many people are maintaining the same codebase. And even when the bug is found, many times finding the piece of code that broke it is the last thing that ever happens. It's a concept about how something should be done--more often than it is the immediate sight just by looking at plain lines of code of what probably "shouldn't" be done.

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Maybe it's naive. Perhaps some new blood is needed. Comparing different emulation scenes is like comparing apples to carburetors. My problem isn't necessarily the diversity of emu cores or plugins, it's more that everyone is so content with the status quo of N64 emulation that nobody is willing to even try a larger collaborative effort.
Well I can't say much about PJ64 Glide64 I guess, but already 4-8 of us have collaborated with the recently opened audio plugin by Azimer. Maybe it could be something other than a plugin, and that possibility would still be there. Though the smallness of the codebase makes a big, helpful focus improvement.
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  #83  
Old 4th May 2015, 10:03 PM
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Well good discussion guys, I think we've gone way beyond the scope of this thread. Sounds like there are pros and cons to both approaches and we'll have to agree to disagree. It doesn't matter if the end result is usable, right?

I don't usually have performance problems with Dolphin, and I don't have the greatest computer in the world. It has an understandably high system requirement.

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Well I can't say much about PJ64 Glide64 I guess, but already 4-8 of us have collaborated with the recently opened audio plugin by Azimer. Maybe it could be something other than a plugin, and that possibility would still be there. Though the smallness of the codebase makes a big, helpful focus improvement.
That's cool, I might have to grab the source for that. Plugins or no, it's all part of the bigger picture that I'm trying to figure out.
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  #84  
Old 5th May 2015, 02:07 AM
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God spoke to me the other day and told me he was thinking about adding this Commandment:

Though shalt love Zilmar like a normal person loves bacon; with almost, but not quite, total arousement.

Just kiddin' Big Z, I love ya.
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  #85  
Old 5th May 2015, 02:31 AM
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Given the backlash of my distasteful opinions regarding the inconsistencies of plugin-based emulators and my seemingly (and all-too-apparent) tactless and shitty skills in defending said opinions, it would be in the best interest of these forum members that I should depart for a time. In other words, I have no business here for a time, and as such, am nothing but a third wheel, a tag-along if you will.

Clearly I contradict myself way too often, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, oh and the one that takes the cake, not agreeing with a plugin-based emulator is tantamount to commission of a federal crime, such as crimes against the person. So, in conclusion, I shall, henceforth, never voice my "opinions" or "contradictions" on these forums, as it seems to me that I rub people the wrong way no matter what I say.

C'est la vie.
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  #86  
Old 5th May 2015, 02:55 AM
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Given the backlash of my distasteful opinions regarding the inconsistencies of plugin-based emulators and my seemingly (and all-too-apparent) tactless and shitty skills in defending said opinions, it would be in the best interest of these forum members that I should depart for a time. In other words, I have no business here for a time, and as such, am nothing but a third wheel, a tag-along if you will.

Clearly I contradict myself way too often, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, oh and the one that takes the cake, not agreeing with a plugin-based emulator is tantamount to commission of a federal crime, such as crimes against the person. So, in conclusion, I shall, henceforth, never voice my "opinions" or "contradictions" on these forums, as it seems to me that I rub people the wrong way no matter what I say.

C'est la vie.
Uhh I'm confused now... What backlash??? All I did was disagree with you, and provided my reasons for disagreeing with you. And correcting you on your false claims.

But ok, cya . Gl Hf .
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  #87  
Old 5th May 2015, 03:41 AM
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Uhh I'm confused now... What backlash??? All I did was disagree with you, and provided my reasons for disagreeing with you. And correcting you on your false claims.

But ok, cya . Gl Hf .
No, not just that, but...in general, I don't feel wanted here, I probably brought it on myself, I don't know. Oh man, even I don't know what I'm doing I just don't know what to do anymore, given the recent events last week where a dear friend of mine took her own life (long story), I haven't been myself, at all....
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  #88  
Old 5th May 2015, 03:55 AM
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I just don't know what to do anymore, given the recent events last week where a dear friend of mine took her own life (long story), I haven't been myself, at all....
Sounds like you need a vacation from the normal for awhile to come to terms. Sorry to hear.
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Old 5th May 2015, 04:25 AM
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Sounds like you need a vacation from the normal for awhile to come to terms. Sorry to hear.
Thank you for your condolences, man, that means a lot. And my deepest apologies for not reading your posts or understanding where your plugin source code was. I wish I could help with testing somehow, you know?
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